Sudbury Vollies pushing for union!!!

Union and union related discussion.
User avatar
dentalhead
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 9:00 pm

Postby dentalhead » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:22 pm

There are lots of composite depts with unions for there volly;s, Hamilton, Welland. I dont think they have huge issues with the two unions.
dentalhead
_____________________
Thousand a week for hide and seek on call when Im paid to be.
Reply With Quote

User avatar
3rdGen
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby 3rdGen » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:52 pm

[quote=""dentalhead""]There are lots of composite depts with unions for there volly;s, Hamilton, Welland. I dont think they have huge issues with the two unions.[/quote]

would not be much different than the nurses in bc who until recently had LPN's in BCHEU and RN's in BCNU. different interests, same employer
"You can't be wrong for doing the right thing"

braidjansen
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Volly Unions

Postby braidjansen » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:27 pm

But I think it does also reinforce a trend that we are seeing in this province's fire service...the transformation of volunteer firefighters into a permanent and growing class of part time firefighters. We can no longer assume a natural progression from volunteer, to composite, to full time status for many municipal departments. The part time firefighter is becoming a permanent part of the landscape in Ontario's fire service...one that is not provided for under existing legislation and one that full time unions will have to wrap their heads around going forward, especially now that volunteers are seeking union representation of their own.

RidleyWalker
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby RidleyWalker » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:25 am

Yes, I know, first post, but let me chirp in here. Bradjainsen is correct. I have noticed the same trend over the last few years. It seems like no matter how large a municipality grows, it does not necessarily translate into more full time jobs. In fact, I fear with the increased level of training a lot of POC/Volunteer have, as well as increased call volumes they have, may actually reduce the number of jobs in the future. I have heard stories of how city councils see volunteers as a cheaper alternative to full time, especially in fast growing towns where the majority of construction is new, up to code, and thereby less likely to burn. Municipalities will run the numbers and go with what is cheaper. A friend who works for a mid sized composite dept told me about his Chief presenting his case for an increase in fulltime staff a couple years ago. The town CAO blew him off and said something like “What do you mean, more career staff? We pay out almost 2 million in salary and benefits as it is, and had only $800,000 in fire loss last year! We could go completely volunteer and the insurance would only go up a couple hundred thousand dollars. The only reason we haven’t axed all you guys is that it looks bad politically! Now get out of my office!” Maybe not that exact conversation, but that’s the gist of it.
Now he says the word is when they renegotiate their contract, the city will try to scrap their clause that says vacancies must be filled within 6 months, so the city can fill positions as they see fit, if at all. I feel bad for him.
And as far as legislation goes, this is gonna be a fustercluck as more of these POCs start organizing, which we are only beginning to see the start of.

User avatar
Hacienda216
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby Hacienda216 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 pm

These career vs "volly" debates are so annoying, but it seems like outside the hiring threads, the only active discussions are the career vs. volunteer shit-flinging matches and the green light discussions. I tried to avoid clicking on this thread for a while but I finally gave in.

[quote=""AxeInHand""]There are two factors that affect which service delivery model is most relevant to a town: service and cost.

The only advantage to full-time staffing from a service perspective is simply that the staff are guarenteed and in station. That's it. Being full-time doesn't make anyone a better firefighter. There are full-time firefighters in small towns that might run 100 calls a year. There are also volunteers who run over 300. There are also some volunteers who train more than some full-timers. (When I first started as a vollie, my department implemented a full firefighter survival program with 100% completion before some of the career departments had even started training their guys).....[/quote]

Glad you added some common sense to this thread. Some folks are gulping down the Kool-Aid by the gallon and the talk was flying off the rails.

[quote=""3rdGen""]Firehouse A- fulltime IAFF guys...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community, gauranteed, with NFPA response time

Firehouse B- parttime CLAC guys...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community when enough people show up, and 15 minutes after the IAFF guys have the fire out.

Not a slight on gear or ability, but you get what you pay for. If you want a fire truck to show up in 6 minutes you pay for that. if you want one in 20, you pay less but you still pay.
6 minutes: save your dog/cat/most photos/ house,
20 minutes: save the foundation??
.....[/quote]


It always humors me to read statements like "no offence, but I'm better than those basement savers" or "No slight on gear or ability but do you want the pro's showing up in 6 minutes to save everything, or some volunteers showing up 20 minutes later to save your basement?" hahah. Just because someone prefaces an offensive statement with "no offence, but..." doesn't change the fact that its an offensive, inflamatory statement.

There are a hell of a lot of IAFF departments that can't meet "required" or "guarenteed" NFPA staffing and response times. How many composite depts have 10 full time suppression guys on duty at a time anyway? Would you not agree that the bulk of composite depts staff maybe...3 or 4 guys on one truck not 10 guys on 2 or 3 rigs. How many municipalities that have 15,000 residents can even afford to sustain a FD with 40 full time front line firefighters? How many IAFF guys respond to a fire by themselves or with 1 other firefighter in the truck? I can think of plenty that do. I'm not sure how a truck arriving to a working fire with 2 full time fire fighters in 6 mins is better than 2 trucks with 10 volunteers in 12 minutes.

I don't take the career vs. volunteer bait very often, but your post is just plain out to lunch. Despite our incompetance, our volunteer dept saved the last 4 houses we had burn. We even stumble-fucked our way inside them, VES'd the 2nd floor of one....hard to believe from a bunch of lowly volunteers. Seems like if anyone disagrees with someone with an IAFF avatar on here, they're a "career hater" but if a full time guy shits on a volunteer's head, well he's just tellin' it like it is, brother. I mean facts are facts, right? And the fact is that every IAFF dept in the country gets 10 firefighters on scene in 10 minutes and saves every house, right? And they do it in a way that is totally affordable and sustainable to their tax base too, huh?

INFERNO21
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby INFERNO21 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 pm

[quote=""Hacienda216""]These career vs "volly" debates are so annoying, but it seems like outside the hiring threads, the only active discussions are the career vs. volunteer shit-flinging matches and the green light discussions. I tried to avoid clicking on this thread for a while but I finally gave in.



Glad you added some common sense to this thread. Some folks are gulping down the Kool-Aid by the gallon and the talk was flying off the rails.




It always humors me to read statements like "no offence, but I'm better than those basement savers" or "No slight on gear or ability but do you want the pro's showing up in 6 minutes to save everything, or some volunteers showing up 20 minutes later to save your basement?" hahah. Just because someone prefaces an offensive statement with "no offence, but..." doesn't change the fact that its an offensive, inflamatory statement.

There are a hell of a lot of IAFF departments that can't meet "required" or "guarenteed" NFPA staffing and response times. How many composite depts have 10 full time suppression guys on duty at a time anyway? Would you not agree that the bulk of composite depts staff maybe...3 or 4 guys on one truck not 10 guys on 2 or 3 rigs. How many municipalities that have 15,000 residents can even afford to sustain a FD with 40 full time front line firefighters? How many IAFF guys respond to a fire by themselves or with 1 other firefighter in the truck? I can think of plenty that do. I'm not sure how a truck arriving to a working fire with 2 full time fire fighters in 6 mins is better than 2 trucks with 10 volunteers in 12 minutes.

I don't take the career vs. volunteer bait very often, but your post is just plain out to lunch. Despite our incompetance, our volunteer dept saved the last 4 houses we had burn. We even stumble-fucked our way inside them, VES'd the 2nd floor of one....hard to believe from a bunch of lowly volunteers. Seems like if anyone disagrees with someone with an IAFF avatar on here, they're a "career hater" but if a full time guy shits on a volunteer's head, well he's just tellin' it like it is, brother. I mean facts are facts, right? And the fact is that every IAFF dept in the country gets 10 firefighters on scene in 10 minutes and saves every house, right? And they do it in a way that is totally affordable and sustainable to their tax base too, huh?[/quote]

I am a union man.... but if there was a "like" button here, i'd click it on this comment... you have made your points clear,,,, I can't disagree too much really.

User avatar
3rdGen
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby 3rdGen » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:12 am

[quote=""Hacienda216""]
It always humors me to read statements like "no offence, but I'm better than those basement savers" or "No slight on gear or ability but do you want the pro's showing up in 6 minutes to save everything, or some volunteers showing up 20 minutes later to save your basement?" hahah. Just because someone prefaces an offensive statement with "no offence, but..." doesn't change the fact that its an offensive, inflamatory statement.

There are a hell of a lot of IAFF departments that can't meet "required" or "guarenteed" NFPA staffing and response times. How many composite depts have 10 full time suppression guys on duty at a time anyway? Would you not agree that the bulk of composite depts staff maybe...3 or 4 guys on one truck not 10 guys on 2 or 3 rigs. How many municipalities that have 15,000 residents can even afford to sustain a FD with 40 full time front line firefighters? How many IAFF guys respond to a fire by themselves or with 1 other firefighter in the truck? I can think of plenty that do. I'm not sure how a truck arriving to a working fire with 2 full time fire fighters in 6 mins is better than 2 trucks with 10 volunteers in 12 minutes.

I don't take the career vs. volunteer bait very often, but your post is just plain out to lunch. Despite our incompetance, our volunteer dept saved the last 4 houses we had burn. We even stumble-fucked our way inside them, VES'd the 2nd floor of one....hard to believe from a bunch of lowly volunteers. Seems like if anyone disagrees with someone with an IAFF avatar on here, they're a "career hater" but if a full time guy shits on a volunteer's head, well he's just tellin' it like it is, brother. I mean facts are facts, right? And the fact is that every IAFF dept in the country gets 10 firefighters on scene in 10 minutes and saves every house, right? And they do it in a way that is totally affordable and sustainable to their tax base too, huh?[/quote]

let me rephrase then

Firehouse A- ...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community, gauranteed, with NFPA response time

Firehouse B- ...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community when enough people show up, and 15 minutes after the firehouse a arrived

Not a slight on gear or ability, but you get what you pay for. If you want a fire truck to show up in 6 minutes you pay for that. if you want one in 20, you pay less but you still pay.

I should have left the union out of it, as that was not my point.
If this is still offensive then I am sorry that you are sensitive to the rate of fire growth.
I thought by focusing on response times and leaving the people out of it I provided a sound argument. It isn't IAFF vs volunteer, but generally ft departments are IAFF and generally ft departments respond faster due to the fact they are not coming from work/home.

Yes there are plenty of IAFF where they cannot man a truck, and yes i'd rather have 12 trained volunteers then any idiot IAFF crew, and obviously i'd rather have 5 volunteers at my home in 12 minutes that 3 IAFF instantly. This was not my point.

I believe the thread started with poc's unionizing in a composite department with IAFF full timers. but these things don't keep me up at night so i don't remember.
I served proudly in a composite department, and they still protect my home. and I know the FT can do eff all to help me in a fire without the volunteer response and that it will be volunteer after hours... but if they could get to me faster i'd be happy to pay for that service...

i took offense to your offensive as I feel i was honest and accurate in my point, maybe not my examples.
"You can't be wrong for doing the right thing"

User avatar
Hacienda216
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby Hacienda216 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:00 pm

[quote=""3rdGen""]let me rephrase then

Firehouse A- ...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community, gauranteed, with NFPA response time

Firehouse B- ...top notch gear and training, providing excellent service to their community when enough people show up, and 15 minutes after the firehouse a arrived

Not a slight on gear or ability, but you get what you pay for. If you want a fire truck to show up in 6 minutes you pay for that. if you want one in 20, you pay less but you still pay.

I should have left the union out of it, as that was not my point.
If this is still offensive then I am sorry that you are sensitive to the rate of fire growth.
I thought by focusing on response times and leaving the people out of it I provided a sound argument. It isn't IAFF vs volunteer, but generally ft departments are IAFF and generally ft departments respond faster due to the fact they are not coming from work/home.

Yes there are plenty of IAFF where they cannot man a truck, and yes i'd rather have 12 trained volunteers then any idiot IAFF crew, and obviously i'd rather have 5 volunteers at my home in 12 minutes that 3 IAFF instantly. This was not my point.

I believe the thread started with poc's unionizing in a composite department with IAFF full timers. but these things don't keep me up at night so i don't remember.
I served proudly in a composite department, and they still protect my home. and I know the FT can do eff all to help me in a fire without the volunteer response and that it will be volunteer after hours... but if they could get to me faster i'd be happy to pay for that service...

i took offense to your offensive as I feel i was honest and accurate in my point, maybe not my examples.[/quote]

Fair enough; I was just feeling cranky cause the bulb in my green light burnt out. Got her all fixed up, so now I'm mellow again, haha.

User avatar
3rdGen
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:33 pm

Postby 3rdGen » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:39 am

[quote=""Hacienda216""]Fair enough; I was just feeling cranky cause the bulb in my green light burnt out. Got her all fixed up, so now I'm mellow again, haha.[/quote]

insert hand shake and beers
"You can't be wrong for doing the right thing"


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests