Manitoba firefighter not authorized to drive ambulance involved in collision

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dentedhead
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Postby dentedhead » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:03 pm

blk96zx7r wrote:I agree. Bottom line is that there is a certain degree of reality here. As I see it, Fire should be allowed to drive an ambulance. They drive large vehicles ( as mentioned in earlier posts ) and driving an ambulance should not be an issue. I mean if you were on scene and for whatever reason EMS needed you to drive I can't imgine anyone saying no. Of course keeping in mind clearing it with command.


The other and more important issue(IMHO) driving a pump or a ladder/platform while requring a great deal of skill is quite different than driving a smaller vehicle with one possibly two medics in the back and the pt.These medics could be providing any manner of care using any number of pointy objects.

It takes a while doing it fulltime to catch on to all the subtleties.I have been away from it for 5 plus years now and im willing to be that if I had to do it tomorrow it would not be a pleasant ride.

Dentedhead
Thousand a week for hide and seek on call when Im paid to be.

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dentedhead
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Postby dentedhead » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:07 pm

responsexone wrote:I'm not to sure about this but i'll find out.


Ill save you the research.

HE IS ON CALGARY FIRE!!!!

Dentedhead
Thousand a week for hide and seek on call when Im paid to be.

responsexone
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Postby responsexone » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:09 pm

cool. just curious anywho.....no need for hostility...

stevephilipps
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Postby stevephilipps » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:22 pm

I am surprised that they would allow a volunteer firefighter or paramedic into an ambulance that was responding to an emergency if they knew there was a possibility that the volunteer would have to take over driving the vehicle if the other paramedics were preoccupied with the patients. As well, if the volunteer has the proper kind of driver licence to drive an ambulance, then why should he not be allowed to drive it if necessary?

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iamvff
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Postby iamvff » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:27 pm

"stevephilipps" wrote:I am surprised that they would allow a volunteer firefighter or paramedic into an ambulance that was responding to an emergency if they knew there was a possibility that the volunteer would have to take over driving the vehicle if the other paramedics were preoccupied with the patients.



Huh?? :confused:
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink...BUT...if you hold it's head under long enough, it has to take a gulp sooner or later!" iamvff - 2010

AxeInHand
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A licence does not equal experience

Postby AxeInHand » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:37 pm

Would you trust someone to help you on scene with CPR because they can flash a Heart and Stroke card? Probably not. Just because you have a license to drive an ambulance (F in Ontario) does not mean you are capable of driving an ambulance.

Every vehicle has a different feel, and drives slightly differently. Emergency vehicles especially so, as they are maintained differently. A motorcycle is smaller and lighter than a car, but I guarentee you that I could not hop onto a police chase bike and drive it without inflicting injury on myself.

I have an article that would support this: Toronto Star, Situation Critical Behind the Wheel of an Ambulance.
(Quick Quote #1 - "It is important to learn the dimensions of the vehicle, its perception in the mirrors and the turning radius"
Quick Quote #2 - "Acceleration and braking must be smooth with a patient on board, as the driver's partner may be starting an IV, performing CPR or administering life-saving medication. It is common for paramedics to spend more than half of a 12-hour shift behind the wheel. Experience is the best teacher and my experience is over")


And a situation critical enough to warrant 2 medics in the back is NOT the time to drive an ambulance for the first time (or first time in x number of years). Medics drive the vehicle everyday, if it is that critical, don't you think the patient deserves to have the best chance of making it to the hospital? Does that not mean letting the most experienced person with the vehicle drive? Does that not mean a medic?

Lets put our egos in check. Medics are better at driving ambulances than we are.


We've been in the "more medics in the back" scenario before. Our medics have used different methods, these being the most common.

Scenario #1 - Take 2 firefighters
Driver - Medic
Drugs - Attending/ALS Medic
Compressions - FF1
Airway - FF2

Scenario #2 - Call 2nd unit, Transport in Unit 1
Driver Unit 1 - Medic
Driver Unit 2 - Medic from Unit 2 (Lead Bus)
Drugs - ALS Medic
Monitor/Defib - Medic (if they are not monitoring the monitor, this medic can replace the airway firefighter)
Compressions - Firefighter
Airway - Firefighter (or medic from 2nd unit)


In VSA calls, our medics always assign CPR to fire. That is something we do more than they do, because they are too busy with ALS skills. VSAs are some of the busier ambulance rides, and 2 spots are taken up with CPR, which firefighters can do. How many more people do you want in the back? With the medic, that makes 3 (+ patient), and THAT is crowded. We've had the second medic from another unit, and they just stayed back and monitored the monitor (something the drug medic usually does).

In short, the quality of care with 2 medics in the back really was not that much more than with 1 medic (there is no need to have an ALS medic leave the wheel to do CPR). If you manage your assets well, you can provide higher level care (which means a medic at the wheel).
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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dentedhead
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Postby dentedhead » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:56 pm

"AxeInHand" wrote:Would you trust someone to help you on scene with CPR because they can flash a Heart and Stroke card? Probably not. Just because you have a license to drive an ambulance (F in Ontario) does not mean you are capable of driving an ambulance.

Every vehicle has a different feel, and drives slightly differently. Emergency vehicles especially so, as they are maintained differently. A motorcycle is smaller and lighter than a car, but I guarentee you that I could not hop onto a police chase bike and drive it without inflicting injury on myself.

I have an article that would support this: Toronto Star, Situation Critical Behind the Wheel of an Ambulance.
(Quick Quote #1 - "It is important to learn the dimensions of the vehicle, its perception in the mirrors and the turning radius"
Quick Quote #2 - "Acceleration and braking must be smooth with a patient on board, as the driver's partner may be starting an IV, performing CPR or administering life-saving medication. It is common for paramedics to spend more than half of a 12-hour shift behind the wheel. Experience is the best teacher and my experience is over")


And a situation critical enough to warrant 2 medics in the back is NOT the time to drive an ambulance for the first time (or first time in x number of years). Medics drive the vehicle everyday, if it is that critical, don't you think the patient deserves to have the best chance of making it to the hospital? Does that not mean letting the most experienced person with the vehicle drive? Does that not mean a medic?

Lets put our egos in check. Medics are better at driving ambulances than we are.


We've been in the "more medics in the back" scenario before. Our medics have used different methods, these being the most common.

Scenario #1 - Take 2 firefighters
Driver - Medic
Drugs - Attending/ALS Medic
Compressions - FF1
Airway - FF2

Scenario #2 - Call 2nd unit, Transport in Unit 1
Driver Unit 1 - Medic
Driver Unit 2 - Medic from Unit 2 (Lead Bus)
Drugs - ALS Medic
Monitor/Defib - Medic (if they are not monitoring the monitor, this medic can replace the airway firefighter)
Compressions - Firefighter
Airway - Firefighter (or medic from 2nd unit)


In VSA calls, our medics always assign CPR to fire. That is something we do more than they do, because they are too busy with ALS skills. VSAs are some of the busier ambulance rides, and 2 spots are taken up with CPR, which firefighters can do. How many more people do you want in the back? With the medic, that makes 3 (+ patient), and THAT is crowded. We've had the second medic from another unit, and they just stayed back and monitored the monitor (something the drug medic usually does).

In short, the quality of care with 2 medics in the back really was not that much more than with 1 medic (there is no need to have an ALS medic leave the wheel to do CPR). If you manage your assets well, you can provide higher level care (which means a medic at the wheel).



Thanks for confirming what I said a year ago ;)

A VSA is the easiest call you can run.Medic maintains airway and does whatever his skill level allows,FF does compressions.

In trauma or other serious medical issues I would prefer a medic with me.Something involving multiple or large bore lines,lots of sharps and other medical stuff.In that case I would also prefer an EXPERIENCED medic driving.

Dentedhead

Dentedhead
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AxeInHand
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Postby AxeInHand » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:08 pm

"dentedhead" wrote:Thanks for confirming what I said a year ago ;)

A VSA is the easiest call you can run.Medic maintains airway and does whatever his skill level allows,FF does compressions.

In trauma or other serious medical issues I would prefer a medic with me.Something involving multiple or large bore lines,lots of sharps and other medical stuff.In that case I would also prefer an EXPERIENCED medic driving.

Dentedhead

Dentedhead


lol. No prob. It was dredged back up again (a year later), so why not? The timing was nice though, right after the Star published that article about ambulances.

The point I was trying to stammer out was that if it is serious enough to need two medics in the back, it is more than serious enough that someone with some experience driving an ambulance be at the wheel.

Always nice to know you're in the same school of thought with a battle-hardened fire service vet!

(For our serious trauma calls, that is when they would call a 2nd unit [if it was not already part of the original CACC dispatch], if not the helo [we are a ways away from a trauma centre - I think the medics send ours to Sunnybrook and St. Mike's].)
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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dentedhead
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Postby dentedhead » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:42 pm

"AxeInHand" wrote:lol. No prob. It was dredged back up again (a year later), so why not? The timing was nice though, right after the Star published that article about ambulances.

The point I was trying to stammer out was that if it is serious enough to need two medics in the back, it is more than serious enough that someone with some experience driving an ambulance be at the wheel.

Always nice to know you're in the same school of thought with a battle-hardened fire service vet!

(For our serious trauma calls, that is when they would call a 2nd unit [if it was not already part of the original CACC dispatch], if not the helo [we are a ways away from a trauma centre - I think the medics send ours to Sunnybrook and St. Mike's].)


I got the point just couldnt resist. :D

I can play both sides since I have been on both sides.Let me assure you I know which side I like best!!

dentedhead
Thousand a week for hide and seek on call when Im paid to be.

AxeInHand
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Postby AxeInHand » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:12 pm

"dentedhead" wrote:I got the point just couldnt resist. :D

I can play both sides since I have been on both sides.Let me assure you I know which side I like best!!

dentedhead


:eek: We are still talking about firefighting and paramedicine, right??? :D

lol, message received. "Liason firefighters" are always nice to have around; someone to speak both languages. Wish I could say the same myself. Stay Safe
Last edited by AxeInHand on Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke


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